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Astro-Databank: Molly Ivins
« on: 22.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

Discussion about
Molly Ivins, born 30 August 1944 at 10:12 AM in Monterey CA

This discussion is imported from the comment board on the previous astrodatabank.com website.

Ivins was an avowed liberal. Though she often argued with her father, an avowed conservative, he was quite influential on her life. Where in the chart might you see her dad's influence on her and the strength she says she learned from him? What does her chart say about the influence of her mother?
What in the chart shows her prolific writing skills and her ability to portray people, their actions or opinions with terse, humorous, sometimes acerbic descriptions?
With a Virgo stellium that includes an exact Sun-Jupiter conjunction and with her moon in Capricorn, earth is the dominant element in her chart. What might the predominance of the earth element add to our analysis of her personality, her political views, her motivation and her work?

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #1 - on: 22.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User LWood

(third attempt here to get this thing to accept the spam blocking query numbers, I'm patient)
First of all before we begin rounds of astrobabble, let me thank you ADB for posting such a wonderfully rich, intelligent and complicated human being's chart. Surely Molly's Jupiter cjn Sun provided her faithful readers with enough humor to last a lifetime. I've saved numerous Ivins' columns.
In case you missed one of her last hilarious commentaries please go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXUUsDGxkU

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #2 - on: 22.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Artes Perditae

Ha Ha!! Let this be the beginning of the end of the notion that virgo is all fussy, finicky, indecisive and over prone to obsessive compulsive panic(though it can certainly over intensify itself with the naming of various possibilities). As a fellow four planet 'sufferer' there, it is nice to see an example of the true virgo possibility as seen in myself and many I know- Fearless wits unafraid of the consequences this far more controversial sign than is credited for often befalls upon those who have it accentuated. And able to point out in infuriating detail just why we must be this way. But I'll give tradition this- of course she never married. But what is often delineated as a certain prissy or virginal attitude is actually something far more agitated: Virgo accented people are very tuned to the passing of time, and very selfish with it. It is ours, belongs to us, and shall not be spoiled by the demands of others. As Seymour-Smith pointed out, Virgo rejects, more than any other sign, and to a fault quite often, the 'superego', as virgo wants to free itself so as to divine its experience on its own terms. Consequently, an unaspected sun, venus, or mercury often, but not always, finds itself helpless in this endeavour, and that, I believe, is where the misunderstandings come from. And that grand trine with moon, venus, and vertex, Mc right down the middle- a person inseparable from their values, able to use them, and be used by them, as the invariable navigator of their life. She was always a little too liberal for me, but as an ex Texas dweller, I found her wit impeccable. A sad passing.

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #3 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Jotown

1.) " Where in the chart might you see her dad's influence on her and the strength she says she learned from him? What does her chart say about the influence of her mother? "
The three planets most often associated with the father (Sun, Saturn and sometimes Jupiter) are in a tight sextile. The sextile from Saturn to her Sun shows that her father was probably close and present (yet very authoritarian). A perfectionist Virgo Sun can be sensitive to criticism; even if the criticism is coming from a nurturing perspective (Saturn in Cancer sextile Sun)
This positive connection from Saturn shows that he helped her learn to stand on her own two feet. I cannot think of a more powerful "strength" to give your child.
Her Capricorn Moon at the nozzle of a funnel pattern and conjunct the IC shows that her mother kept close to home and kept the home together while both father and daughter went out into the world. A Cap Moon trine Venus and square the ASC could indicate a loving "perfectionist" mother whose nurturing (Cap Moon trine Venus in Virgo) could at times be a bit chilly and at odds with the life path of her daughter (Moon square ASC)
2.) " What in the chart shows her prolific writing skills and her ability to portray people, their actions or opinions with terse, humorous, sometimes acerbic descriptions?"
Jupiter conjunct the Sun and natural ruler of the 9th house of publishing while also being the natal ruler of the third house of writing along with Mercury conjunct Venus and being natural ruler of the third house of writing and natal ruler of the 9th house of publishing while in the 11th house of aspirations and acceptance shows the prolific writing skill along with the ability to connect with the masses. That the Mercury/Venus conjunction also sextile the MC bolsters this connection. Jupiter conjunct the Sun and square Uranus gives the talent for humor and "acerbic descriptions." Mars square Saturn gives the terse lines and talent for piercing to the heart of the matter (or the authority figure).
She also has an almost exact quintile between Mercury and Saturn. This again emphasizes the terse, humorous, sometimes acerbic communicator. Pluto is also in quintile to the ASC which gave her a talent (quintile) to be devastating (Pluto) in an artistic (Libra) and sublime way.
3.) " Earth is the dominant element in her chart. What might the predominance of the earth element add to our analysis of her personality, her political views, her motivation and her work?"
Her Mutable Earth chart shows that she was a practical person. However Jupiter conjunct the Sun in Virgo shows the practical (Virgo) idealist (Jupiter). Ascendant ruler Venus in Virgo conjunct Mars/Neptune in Libra shows the fighter and again the practical (Venus in Virgo) idealist (Neptune conjunct Venus).
All of this Jupiter and Neptune show her progressive leanings and that it was based on a very idealistic world view. Her chart shows a perfectionist and idealist who believed that good (or better) was possible and she was probably regularly disappointed when it was not achieved; either personally or politically.
She was an American original the likes of which we won't see again for a long time. She always made me think and she always made me laugh. The Heavenly Gazette just got a great new feature writer. Bless you Molly Ivins.

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #4 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Jotown

1.) " Where in the chart might you see her dad's influence on her and the strength she says she learned from him? What does her chart say about the influence of her mother? "
The three planets most often associated with the father (Sun, Saturn and sometimes Jupiter) are in a tight sextile hence "Father" would be an important issue in this life. The sextile from Saturn to her Sun shows that her father was probably close and present (yet very authoritarian).
A perfectionist Virgo Sun can be sensitive to criticism; even if the criticism is coming from a nurturing perspective (Saturn in Cancer sextile Sun). This positive connection from Saturn shows that he helped her learn to stand on her own two feet. I cannot think of a more powerful "strength" to give your child.
Her Capricorn Moon at the nozzle of a funnel pattern and conjunct the IC shows that her mother kept close to home and kept the home together while both father and daughter went out into the world. A Cap Moon trine Venus and square the ASC could indicate a loving "perfectionist" mother whose nurturing (Cap Moon trine Venus in Virgo) could at times be a bit chilly and at odds with the life path of her daughter (Moon square ASC)
2.) " What in the chart shows her prolific writing skills and her ability to portray people, their actions or opinions with terse, humorous, sometimes acerbic descriptions?"
Jupiter conjunct the Sun and natural ruler of the 9th house of publishing while also being the natal ruler of the third house of writing along with Mercury conjunct Venus and being natural ruler of the third house of writing and natal ruler of the 9th house of publishing - while in the 11th house of aspirations and acceptance - shows the prolific writing skill along with the ability to connect with the masses. That the Mercury/Venus conjunction also sextile the MC bolsters this connection. Mercury is also by far the most dignified planet in this chart. This greatly supports anything to do with writing or communicating. Jupiter conjunct the Sun and square Uranus gives the talent for humor and "acerbic descriptions." Mars square Saturn gives the terse lines and talent for piercing to the heart of the matter (or the authority figure).
She also has an almost exact quintile between Mercury and Saturn. This again emphasizes the terse (Saturn) humorous (Mercury) acerbic (Saturn) communicator (Mercury). Pluto is also in quintile to the ASC which gave her a talent (quintile) to be devastating (Pluto) in an artistic (Libra) and sublime way.
3.) " Earth is the dominant element in her chart. What might the predominance of the earth element add to our analysis of her personality, her political views, her motivation and her work?"
Her Mutable Earth chart shows that she was a practical person. However Jupiter conjunct the Sun in Virgo shows the practical (Virgo) idealist (Jupiter). Ascendant ruler Venus in Virgo conjunct Mars/Neptune in Libra shows the fighter and again the practical (Venus in Virgo) idealist (Neptune conjunct Venus).
All of this Jupiter and Neptune show her progressive leanings and that it was based on a very idealistic world view. Her chart shows a perfectionist and idealist who believed that good (or better) was possible and she was probably regularly disappointed when it was not achieved; either personally or politically.
She was an American original the likes of which we won't see again for a long time. She always made me think and she always made me laugh. The Heavenly Gazette just got a great new feature writer. Bless you Molly Ivins.

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #5 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Lynn I did a profile for Molly Ivins here: http://astrodynamics.blogspot.com/2007/02/astrological-tribute-to-molly-ivins.ht ml.
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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #6 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Jane Umm--In case no one else has alerted you yet, you've published Ann Richards's photo, instead of Molly Ivins's. It needs to be corrected. Thanks.
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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #7 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Artes Perditae

Something I've been picking up in charts lately, and it seems almost invariable- If mercury is throwing an aspect back at saturn, or if they frame the asc or mc with merc at the base, there is a telling tendency toward a sharp wit. If mercury throws forward, the skill is more conversational than controversial. perhaps, or not. Worth studying further.

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #8 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Terry You have Anne Richards picture up at the beginning of this feature..NOT Molly Ivans
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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #9 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Terry You have Anne Richards picture up at the beginning of this feature..NOT Molly Ivans
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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #10 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Therese

What nice photos of Molly, both on this page and in the AstroDatabank Newsletter! A real Texas belle, so different from late photos that can't hide her battle with cancer. Born in California, but she has that Texas charm and smile!
This is one of those charts where astrologers could argue to infinity about zodiac signs because there are Virgo stelliums in both zodiacs (if Neptune is included). I like AP's comments on Virgo.

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #11 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Therese

Although Venus with Mercury can point to ability with the pen, it certainly doesn't describe an acid tongue and fixed and strong opinions. The navamsa chart is invaluable here because that chart contains a powerful angular Mercury square Mars--to the degree on the angles.
Molly was a strong opinionated person, which is shown sidereally by Sun-Jupiter strong in Leo rather than mutable Virgo. The second house rules speech and the tongue (at least in the old texts and Jyotish) and as lord of that house, Venus is with Mars in Virgo, Mars being the ruler of the 3rdhouse of writing (use of hands and arms). Molly has the Moon's nodes in 10th and 4th. This is where my nodes are, and this is really a fine position for a writer. Comfort is found at home (Ketu), but what is produced in seclusion at home makes its way to the house of career. For Molly, this was a very public and loved persona.
Molly's chart has the typical writer's pattern I've seen in so many horoscopes. There's an article on my web site about his pattern: (1) Both Mercury and the Moon are prominent by being very close to an equal house cusp, or in an angular house. Sometimes the dispositors will be in one of those positions rather than the planet itself.
(2) The third house lord or its dispositor is either angular or on an equal house cusp.
In Molly's chart: (1) Moon is angular near the 4th cusp. (2) Mercury (lord of 10th and 1st) is exactly on cusp 12. (3) Mars is lord of 3rd (the act of writing), and its dispositor Mercury is on cusp 12. (Also navamsa 3rd lord Mars is in a powerful angular position in square to an angular Mercury.)
The 12th house emphasis in Molly's chart is worth a discussion in itself.

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #12 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User RKO

1. Ivins was an avowed liberal. Though she often argued with her father, an avowed conservative, he was quite influential on her life. Where in the chart might you see her dad's influence on her and the strength she says she learned from him? What does her chart say about the influence of her mother?
Saturn in 10th House opposed (challenging) Moon in 4th House (Mundane: the party opposed to the party in power) = Sa (Tradition/conservative authority figure; strict father in position of power (10th) ) opposing Moon (childhood and mother). Molly's 12th House Sun (Ego) and Mercury (Mind) in Virgo (criticism, intellectual agility and skill) is the 3rd (communicates, argues through her Powerful stellium) of the 10th. The Sun ( Recognition) sextile (mental stimulation, learning opportunity) Saturn (Restrictions); provides the 'opportunity' to overcome difficult authority conflicts with the aid of Sun conj. Jupiter (Success, reward). Her mother (Moon) 4th House in trine (assists) with Venus (Values) 9th of the 4th, encourages Molly to get a higher education (9th House).
2. What in the chart shows her prolific writing skills and her ability to portray people, their actions or opinions with terse, humorous, sometimes acerbic descriptions?
Moon and Jupiter shows a strong affinity with Politics, Journalists and Writers (M. Guaquelin).
Sun (Ego, volition) sesquisquare (Frustration, anger, agitation, disruption; acerbic (acid temper)) Moon (Emotion) and Jupiter (Satisfied demand), plus Uranus (Anarchist, subversion of values just-for-the-hell of it, freedom of speech) in the 9th House (opinions, publishing), plus Mars (applied energy) conj. (powerful, driven) Neptune (Creative imagination) in the 1st House of Identity and assertion.
3. With a Virgo stellium that includes an exact Sun-Jupiter conjunction and with her moon in Capricorn, earth is the dominant element in her chart. What might the predominance of the earth element add to our analysis of her personality, her political views, her motivation and her work?
Sun conj. Jupiter (optimistic and enthusiastic about life, expresses self in larger than life ways, zest for life, likes to be recognized). Virgo (Separates the wheat from the chaff or the high and mighty from their self righteous thrones). Moon in Capricorn (Well known for their ironic and often biting humor). Earth (Practical, straight forward, no nonsense approach to life, not deceived by airy-fairy blue sky polemics).
All in all this is quite a lady!

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #13 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Therese Hamilton

As astrologers we forget sometimes that the entire chart isn't active all the time. This is where the planetary periods (Dasas and also the Hellenistic time lord systems) and solar returns are helpful in finding the times when certain aspects in the chart manifest. The solar return for Molly Ivins' death tells us a lot about her 12th house. Molly has a loaded 12th using any house system or zodiac. So we see the 12th active in the year of her death.
This year Molly was under Saturn major Dasa/Venus sub-period. In the natal chart Saturn (lord of 5th and 6th) squares Venus in the 12th. Venus is in the 12th in all house systems except Vedic whole sign houses. So I'm counting it as in the 12th. Saturn's planetary period is very long, so what matters is the Venus sub-period. To see how the Venus period works, we not only look at the position of Venus, but also any planets in the mansions of Venus. Molly has two planets in Venus mansions: Sun-Jupiter in the 12th house (cusp-as-center and whole sign Vedic houses). Next looking at the solar return, we see that this year Leo rises very close to natal Mercury on the 12th cusp. This places the natal Jupiter-Sun in the solar return first house (whole sign and cusp-as- center), solar Sun-Mercury in the foreground, and all these planets are closely opposed by transiting Uranus, co-lord of the 6th house of illness. So there's no doubt that the solar return pinpoints natal Mercury (chart lord), Sun (12th lord) and Jupiter, lord of 7th--death and 4th--endings for this year. I've found Uranus active so often in death charts that I don't think twice about it.
So the Sun-Jupiter in the 12th manifested at the time of her death. The transit chart at the time of her death puts Ketu just on the solar return ascendant and conjunct natal Mercury, lord of the Virgo ascendant, and Jupiter, lord of 7th (death) and 4th (endings including end of life) just on the solar return nadir/I.C. Transiting Uranus is still in the degree it holds in the solar return. This is strong evidence that transits to the angles of the solar return chart are critical and should be timed.
Transiting Ketu brought freedom from the suffering and worry of illness, a liberation of sorts which comes under the 12th in Jyotish. The delineation of the solar return can't be exact unless house lords are considered.
Oh, also the solar return M.C. is only a degree from natal Uranus, 6th lord. So Uranus is a very important key in this year's solar return.

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #14 - on: 23.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User LWood

Molly's SR chart for '06 (Austin) features Merc as the final dispositor for all but Uranus and Neptune. Merc rules her SR 8th house and is her Ruling planet conjunct her SR Sun. I wondered how many notables the Saturn Nept opposition would signify a passing. The opposition was close to exact in her SR chart across her 4th/10th axis.
Her Sat/Nept Mdpt is 20 Leo. Saturn had conj it 4 months before her passing while Pluto was sqr her chart ruler, Venus which co-rules her eight house. I noted her first diagnosis happened close to her progressed lunar return in 99.
ADB overlooked why Molly was dismissed from her Rocky Mtn bureau chief's job by the NY Time in 1982: "Her more colorful style clashed with the editors' expectations, and in 1982, after she wrote about a "community chicken-killing festival" and called it a "gang-pluck," she was dismissed. Wiki
Molly worked with the confidence of Jupiter and the defiance of Uranian squares.
Great lady.

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #15 - on: 24.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Therese Solar Return Chicken Soup: I used the precession free (sidereal) solar return for Molly's birth location. Lwood, what kind of return are you using?
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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #16 - on: 24.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Carol

(Second try) Jotown wrote: "Pluto is also quintile to the Asc., which gave her a talent (quintile) to be devastating (Pluto) in an artistic (Libra) and sublime way."
I like that interpretation, Jotown, and I think the quote L. Wood shared (Thanks, L. Wood) is a good example of it, i.e.,"... she got fired from a job because she wrote about a community chicken-killing festival and called it a gang-pluck."

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Molly Ivins « Reply #17 - on: 24.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Zart Tropically very down to Earth. with a Cap/Moon n-Node conj opposite Taurus/MC it isn't surprising that she would find her self welcome by those that appreciate a good Gadfly. She found art in pointing out the obvious contradictions of American culture.
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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #18 - on: 24.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Carol

I think the most striking thing about this chart is the 4 vs. 10 theme (home, feelings, being nurtured vs. the outer world, status, achievement, being in control), being repeated over and over again, i.e., Moon in Capricorn, Saturn in Cancer, Capricorn on the 4th, Cancer on the MC, Moon exactly opposed the MC in Cancer, ruler of the MC in the 4th, etc.
And it all perfectly describes Molly's home life being characterized by everything Capricorn (strict disciplinarian father, both parents quite accomplished, etc.), and how she adapted (Moon) so well to it in a typically Capricorn way, learning how to stand up to her father (getting control) and eventually accomplishing so much out in the world herself.
But ironically, what she probably aspired to most was simply to nurture and feel nurtured in a warm, personal, unconditional-positive-regard way (Cancer on the MC).

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re: Molly Ivins
« Reply #19 - on: 24.02.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Heracles V.

Dear friends of Astrology some personal observations on this indeed very interesting chart.
In the first paragraph of thiw woman's short biography we read:
"Ivins grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood of Houston." Her dad was the family disciplinarian, a conservative Republican who was general counsel and then president of Tenneco Corporation. She admits to having many arguments with him about their widely divergent political views and claimed that she had trouble with male authority figures because of his strictness. She also credited him with her tough exterior: "I believe that all the strength I have comes from learning how to stand up to him." In 1998, suffering from cancer, her father committed suicide by shooting himself."
The extraordinary element in this chart is the very strong connection between the luminaries (the Sun and the Moon) and the most important personal sensitive points in any chart that is the Asc/desc and MC/IC axes. As you can see the Moon opposes the Midheaven and squares her Ascendant while at the same time the Sun/Jupiter conjuction, placed in the middle of her Asc/Mc natal square, forms exact aspects 8th harmonic series (45 and 135 degrees)to the edges of the Moon-MC opposition.
Such rare and powerful configurations require a very careful and analytical examination because the experience shows that in most cases prove themselves to be the key-elements in a chart.
Without any calculation,just with the naked eye you can notice that her MC is placed in the middle of the angular distance between Saturn and Pluto that is the MC conjucts the Saturn/Pluto midpoint. And because as I have already mentioned her MC is connected with the luminaries with exact "hard" aspects we have the formation of the following planetary picture:
MC=Sun=Moon=Jupiter=Saturn/Pluto
Now add to the previous the following picture in her chart
Sun=Jupiter=ASC/MC=Moon/ASC=Moon/MC
and you get the first paragraph of her biography written in the astrological language. The rising in a rich family,the socially powerful father(Sun=Jupiter=MC),the strick ,"disciplinarian" father,the "strengthening" of her character,the tragic end of her father(Sun=MC=Saturn/Pluto),her own tragic end (the axis of the end of life in the sign of Cancer (breasts) conjucting the Saturn/Pluto mdp) everything is here.
I'll continue some of the following days with the rest of the chart.
Greetings from Holland
Heracles

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