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Astro-Databank Global Moderator Astrodienst Staff Adb editor Posts: 204	Astro-Databank: Religion: Vatican II « on: 26.04.2002 at 13:30 [UT+1] » Discussion about Religion: Vatican II, born 13 October 1962 at 09:00 AM in Vatican City This discussion is imported from the comment board on the previous astrodatabank.com website. This may be the best chart for the modern Catholic Church. We welcome your comments on whether this chart fits the church.
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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #1 - on: 18.05.2002 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Jane Griscti

How very odd there are no comments on this chart yet. Personally I find it very descriptive of the modern Catholic Church. Using Placidian Houses, Mars (strife) is critical (0 deg) in the 9th house of philosophy and they have been "under attack" for their ideas concerning women, celibacy, abortion, etc for decades.
Uranus in the 10th conjunct the MC in exact opposition to Jupiter in the 4th highlights the difficulties they are having in modernizing their agenda and the harm their reputation (10th) has suffered.
The Moon in the 5th shows the public's (Moon) interest in their philosopy (Moon rules 9th) concerning children and 'romantic affairs'(5th). Moon opposition Sun is an indication of the difficulties their stance creates for the Pope (Sun). With the Sun in the 11th the head of the church looks for support from political (Leo intercepted in 10th) friends (11th) of the church. The opposition also highlights the criticism from those same friends that the Pope has had to deal with for using entertainment ploys to get his point across.
The 12th cusp is critical at 29 deg Libra, an indication that secrets and behind the scenes (12th) machinations will be critical. Neptune in the 12th square Pluto in the 10th shows that these issues have been long-standing (Neptune) and that the church tends to use force and drastic measures (Pluto) to keep them secret and protect their reputation.
The first house represents the priests themselves and Venus in Scorpio here indicates women and sex issues are of personal interest as is their philosophy concerning them (Mars ruling Scorpio in 9th) and the churchs reputation (Pluto ruling Scorpio in 10th) because of them. Venus also rules the 7th house of enemies; an indication that their enemies are primiarily interested in the behaviour of individual priests. Venus also rules the cusp of the 12th pointing to major disapointments (12th) as a result of the behaviour of individual priests.

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Religion: Vatican II « Reply #2 - on: 21.05.2002 at 13:30 [UT+1] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User maxine Pluto transiting the 2nd house cusp denotes the huge out pouring of cash, ( pluto, the treasurer) to settle sexual abuse accusations (sexual compulsion), could lead to bankruptcy
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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #3 - on: 12.08.2002 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Leda Gregory

Anyway, I wanted to apologize profusely as I gave you the wrong date in my email apparently. I had the right date cited (with the page number and book), but typed it wrong to you and I'm so, so, sorry. It's Oct 11th when the opening ceremonies took place, and then the deliberations started on the 13th of October. On the chart for Oct 11th, you will see also what I meant by the grand cross going on in transit as it's got a 16 degree pisces moon that's been effected lately. It also has a 29 degree cancer node that is highly significant to the current topics effecting the church, whereas the 00 degree leo node doesn't make as much sense. MEA CULPA.

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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #4 - on: 29.07.2003 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Stephen Baxter

Describing the issues of this chart with language like "the major disappointments as the results of behavior of individual priests" is the kind of feeble assertion I have come to expect from the Church itself. It is not wrong, of course. You would have to suffer from political myopia to spend most of your time discussing the Church's treatment of females. Clearly males are at risk here (and not just one). I don't know how you can spend most of your time looking for such subtlties as intercepted houses when you are staring into the face of one of the most afflicted charts you will ever see.
The issue of this chart is glaring. It tells the story of beautiful window dressing to hide ugly horrors. It is not easy to find a spot in this chart where malevolence cannot be nourished prodigiously. Are there no Jesuit astrologers? The Catholic Church couldn't afford the $500 for an electional astrologer? No one would choose this time to initiate anything if they had an astrologer on retainer. The strongest asset here is the Mercury/Saturn trine ("Yes, Yes, we'll look into it eventually. Don't worry; don't worry. We're on top of things.") The Magi were astrologers and the first to recognize Jesus.
If this were the chart of an individual person, we might hope for a rare inspiration that would bring wisdom out of childhood horrors, but it is the chart of an organization. If an astrology chart is the framework of tendencies that define an individual, there is hope that the individual can cope with his tendencies in the wisest fashion. When the chart is of an organization or a nation, then the behaviors described by the tendencies are what you can expect most of the time, the nature of bureaucracy being what it is.
The religious theme of the chart is obvious. Jupiter is opposed the conjunctions with the MC placing Jupiter on the IC, and Neptune in the Twelfth is conjunct the Ascendant. Venus/Neptune on the Ascendant is God's love and the opulent glitter of fine art. It is the bride of Christ, appearantly, at least. With Venus/Neptune/Ascendant in Scorpio, we are prodded to believe that God is preoccupied with sex.
The rare Pluto, Uranus, MC group opposed to Jupiter is painful religious revolution. It is the spewing of a volcano when the longstanding internal pressures can no longer be restrained. That is what Vatican II was. Consider how long the Catholic Church put off the necessary reforms. This shows that they put it off as long as they could and relented only when it became dangerous to stall any longer. If this is now the birthchart of the Catholic Church, then the babe was born near the gape of an active volcano.
The Mars/Saturn opposition is close. This is the classic "bad" aspect in astrology. It is aptly qualifed by its merger with Nodes across the Leo/Aquarius axis. This describes proud men closing ranks to defend themselves against the shame and disrepute that will follow when their misdeeds are exposed and clarified. The deeds are harm and abuse. An individual with this aspect needs to tread lightly if he hopes to reach a ripe, old age. The Mars/Node conjunction in this mess describes an unbending patriarch who cannot possibly dignify himself with the cocky assertion that he is always right.
There is a T-square forming between this Mars/Saturn opposition and the Venus/Neptune/Ascendant conjunction. If this were the chart of a rare individual, there would be hope of building structures upon aspiring mysticism after maturity and wisdom were found, but for the vast majority of people this could be the seeds of a sexual preditor. Since both Leo and Scorpio are launched by this assembly, we must suspect the worst. A different mix of signs would be needed to bring out the best of this combination. Leo/Scorpio squares are extremely common in cases of sexual misconduct.
How does the Church treat women? It puts them on a pedistal against their will in a manner similar to chivalry. I don't blame women for objecting, but, really, the issue is the dispicable abuse of boys. The political concerns of feminists pale in comparison. How can you look at this chart, and think that it is about feminist politics?
The oppostition Sun/Moon is the third opposition to slice this chart, and since it is between both the Sun and Moon, the slashing of the chart becomes the primary concern. We are not talking about scrapes, bruises, and scars. We are talking about severances, blood letting, and possibly mortal wounds. The opposition across Aries/Libra is the sword of justice.

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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #5 - on: 29.07.2003 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Stephen Baxter

The Christian Church is the Bride of Christ, a theme that is oft repeated by clergy and theologians but never more often than by the Catholic Church. Mother Church is decidedly feminine. It is conventional to view the Vatican II chart, as with any electional chart, as the birthchart of the entity. This I have done elsewhere, but can we not also view it as a marriage chart?
You may have done so before. Many astrologers have. The watch is synchronized to capture the moment when the minister says, "I now pronounce you Man and Wife". The resulting chart will be a fount of information about the progress and outcome of the marriage. Particularly, it will describe issues that must be resolved or managed if the marriage is to last. If the bride and groom hired an astrologer prenuptually, then they deserve a refund with this chart. Sun oppose Moon is not ideal in a wedding chart, but that is the least of the worries. It suggests that the strained marriage was virtually unavoidable, but it probably will not last. With Pluto/Uranus conjunct on the MC oppose Jupiter and Scorpio on the Ascendant, it acquires the flavor of a shotgun wedding upon a beautiful site.
The bride herself is a delicious beauty, and all male attendees in the audience are fantasizing upon the delerious potential of the wedding night. They are probably envious of the groom, but all is not what it appears to be. They don't know that the groom is marrying against his will. Not even the groom knows that the bride is purchasing a fat insurance policy on his life.
The groom will be battered viciously throughout the honeymoon, and if he stays in the miserable marriage, the best he can hope for is civil conversation confined to pressing practical matters. The wife will be unfaithful a multitude of times.

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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #6 - on: 11.02.2005 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Dawn Woodhouse

The chaitra Shukla chart for 2005 for the Vatican City location has powerful connections to the Vatican II chart.
Coincidentally, if there is even such a thing, the ascendants are less than 2 degrees in difference.
----Not to mention the eclipse on the chaitra shukla chart on 8th april 2005 is at 25 pisces sits on the natal vatican moon at 23 pisces and opposed the Sun at 26 Virgo.
Transit Rahu at 29 pisces is approaching the Moon, and transit Saturn at 26 Gemini is squaring.
Its interesting to note Saturn the 5th lord, retrograde in the 9th, Venus the 1st lord, in 6th with 9th lord Mercury.
Significant events related to religious matters are indicated by this configuration.

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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #7 - on: 01.04.2005 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Dawn Woodhouse

For those unfamiliar with the term Chaitra Shukla, this is the vedic new year chart, which is given more importance than the Jan 1 chart, and it takes place on the sidereal new moon in pisces.
This takes place on 8th April this year. As we can see from my post back in February, significant events ARE taking place now relating to the Catholic Church.
The pope is on his deathbed and people are gathering around waiting for news.
Its interesting but of course, totally in keeping with astrology, in the sense that that which is most affected will show it, that there are such significant aspects to the Vatican II chart; I feel they are more intense than his natal aspects.
Sidereal positions:
Natal Moon 23 Pisces, Natal Sun 26 Virgo. Asc 26 Libra. MC 8 Leo. Uranus 10 Leo.
Chaitra Shukla (8th April Eclipse) chart: Sun/Moon 25 Pisces, Venus 27 Pisces, Rahu 29 Pisces, Saturn 26 Gemini. Jupiter 19 Virgo. Asc rome location 28 Libra. Mc 11 Leo. Uranus 15 Aquarius.
Note the eclipse MC is also on natal Uranus. = change in direction. Plus eclipse Uranus 15 aquarius opposes natal MC 8/Uranus 10/Pluto 17.... those are rather wide, but its closely approaching pluto.
All suggestive of change in direction.

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Adb web user Ex Member	re: Religion: Vatican II « Reply #8 - on: 31.07.2005 at 13:30 [UT+1] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Virginia I'm wondering why the chart and birth data still give 13 Oct 1962 when the opening ceremonies did take place 11 Oct 1962 and the original source for the birth data has written in the comments that 13 Oct was a typo?
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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #9 - on: 30.08.2006 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User taite

I wonder why nobody has thought, as I have ever since I first showed any interest in the subject, that Vatican I (the FIRST Vatican Council) should be regarded as the birth date of modern Catholicism.
Since John Paul II ascended to the papacy, and especially since the publication of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis in 1994, there is relatively little doubt that Vatican I and its definitions of papal infallibility looms decisively in the Catholic Church's history, especially in the way it contrasts with liberalisation in other secular dictatorships since the collapse of Stalinism in the late 1980s.
Vatican II, by comparison, is at all events clouded in debate as to its true meaning, which it is probably fair to say lessens its true influence.
I wonder what you in the astrological community would think of seeing a chart for Vatican I?

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re: Religion: Vatican II
« Reply #10 - on: 29.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Craig

To me, the Catholic Church is a sham organisation, which is a giant hypocritical blight on the face of the earth.
Look at its bloody history. Persecuting those who don't believe its line of thought. To me, forcing someone to believe something causing pain and brutality, has lost all its credence.
As Queen Elizabeth the so-called, whore and bastard Queen of England (according to the Catholic Church) put it on the eve of the Spanish Armada's attack on England. 'Within the bowels of these Spanish ships lies the Spanish Inquisition' I couldn't have said it better myself Majesty!!!!
Catholicism is a staid, relic of history. Goodbye to it the sooner the better.
No one can claim to be an Authority of Christ, only Christ himself.

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Julien Peter Benney

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Vatican II and the chart of Pope Paul VI
« Reply #11 - on: 10.11.2010 at 11:08 [UT] »

For a long time, I have always thought that many of the conflicts over how to interpret Vatican II can best be seen in terms of Pope Paul VI’s natal chart. Given its character being much more remarkable than that of Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI - in terms of lack of fire Pope Paul VI’s chart must rank among the top dozen or so - it is surprising Astro DataBank did not have a good look at how this striking lack of fire impacted the leadership of the Catholic Church during Montini’s papacy.

For a start, it is very easy to see how the extreme lack of fire in Paul VI’s chart, along with the absence of firm-willed fixed signs, would have so much of an impact on the way in which he made decisions when in such a powerful role. Even his most controversial decisions like Humanae Vitae were alwasy made in a manner much more collegial than is usual with popes - at least insofar as Paul VI sought advice from people like Ottaviani and John C. Ford before making decisions. Most people on both sides of debates concerning the Catholic Church have viewed Pope Paul, with his lack of fire and fixed planets, as indecisive.

In many ways, the chart of Pope Paul, with its virtual absence of fire and fixed planets to provide self-confidence, says a lot about what the Second Vatican Council turned out to be when viewed as a meeting. It was not a meeting that had a strong or solid idea of what it was supposed to achieve: instead, it was called by Pope John after he had said that Vatican I had officially ended a whopping eighty-nine years after that council - as decisive as Vatican II was not - ended.

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