Forum - Astrodienst

Astro-Databank

Global Moderator
Astrodienst Staff
Adb editor

Posts: 204

Astro-Databank: Joerg Haider
« on: 10.02.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

Discussion about
Joerg Haider, born 26 January 1950 at 2:25 PM in Bad Goisern

This discussion is imported from the comment board on the previous astrodatabank.com website.

Europe is in an uproar over his anti-immigration, pro-Nazi statements.

Can you discern far left from far right politics in a birth chart?
Can you build an astrological signature for xenophobia?
Do you see his ability to attract and fend off powerful opposition?

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #1 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Anon.

I am not religious and had little religious education i.e. know very little about the bible. However recently I have been thinking about the supposed manifestation of the devil (666) and wonder how one might prove the devil through astrology. I have certain theories. Haider's chart does not confirm to some of my theories. However, on looking at his natal chart. I notice that his Sun is at 6 degrees (first 6), and then interestingly, four 'planets' at 18 degrees (6x3 = 666 ?). Do you think it is just pure coincidence or synchronicity? Any comments would be appreciated.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #2 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Alan Ouimet

Su-Mo AQ-TA square - Fixed conservative position. Ur CN and peregrine and Mo TA - intensifies feelings for homeland and conservative tendencies. Fear of infection from others - Ma - Ne LI (very wide conj but in same sign. Me sq Ne CP in 7th emphasizes the point suggesting such "infection" is danger to good order, institutions etc (any Capricorn). Pl-Ju always exaggerates power needs emphasizing power struggles and his need to be socially significant motivated by a personal perspective demanding honor and respect. Because of this exaggerated need to create tension (opposition) and to do what he wants to do without any impediment (Uranus peregrine) he will intensify his environment causing him to be seen as unique and a moving target of the more liberal elements of society. The chart suggests a man with a very unhappy early home life (Su sq Mo) with deep insecurities (Ma - Ne Libra) and Ur peregrine on Ascendant. Parents absent to his needs.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #3 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Tom Clewis

Sun in the radical, revolutionary sign of Aquarius! No wonder he is the leader of the "Freedom" Party!
The Moon clashing Jupiter, as well as the Sun. That seems to indicate a furious power struggle involving group associations in relation to his eighth and eleventh houses. As far as transits goes, Uranus (in particular) and Neptune are resting on his natal sun, which is probably helping this person to "suddenly" appear on the international scene, poised to become a very "powerfully charismatic" yet potentially "dangerous", individual! Just take a look as his eighth house of Scorpio; Venus conjuncting Jupiter with Sun opposing Pluto. It would be interesting to see what the future unfolds within the next two or three years.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #4 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Ron Grimes

I am using the Systems Approach to Vedic Astrology, with equal sign/equal house and an ayanamsha of 23:09:32, as the basis for my comments on this chart. Xenophobia would be seen as a mental/emotional fear surrounding foreigners. A fearful mind is represented by an affliction to the fourth house/lord. In this chart, we see that Ketu is very closely conjoined with Mars near the most effective point (equal bhava madhya) of the house of the mind (4th). From this position, Ketu casts his fearful aspect upon the house of foreigners (12th). This is further compounded by Ketu's aspect upon the debilitated ruler of "others" (Jupiter) in the 8th house. In terms of politics, many like to say that fascist views are far right, but in reality they are far left. The reason is that it is well known that the left frequently looks to increased government regulation as the way to resolve problems. The right wing wants decrease in government and more individual responsibility. Given the fact that fascism is the extreme extent of government control, it can only be properly categorized as extreme left wing. Since the left wing thinks of itself as the advocate of the working class, this is clearly a Saturn correspondence. In this chart, we see that the government planets (Sun and Jupiter) are in the Saturn ruled sign of Capricorn, where they are both afflicted by malefic Ketu. Because this affliction takes place in a Saturn-ruled sign, his governmental views are extreme left wing sympathetic.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #5 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Liane Thomas Wade

If I may suggest: please add the South Node to your charts. In the case of Haider, it would immediately make clear that conjunction to his Mars. That is a very interesting picture; does his energy go down the drain? Or is this his outlet (Martian energy) when his back is against the wall? If so, it will do him in eventually.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #6 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Sy Scholfield

Joerg Haider's approach may be his own, but his racist ideas are entrenched in Nazism -- a doctrine synonymous with ultra-xenophobic (and also ultra-misogynist and ultra-homophobic) genocidal dictator, Adolf Hitler. Fears surface when a subject taps into the negative sides of planets. Xenophobia is the fear of "foreigners" or people from different ethnic and religious (Jupiter/Sagittarius/Ninth House) groups (Uranus/Aquarius/Eleventh House) which may lead to discrimination against (Chiron/Virgo/Sixth House) and ultimately hatred of (and violence against) them.
If we look at the charts of Haider and Hitler (20th April 1889 18:30 LMT Braunau, Austria) we see several things in common. Using Equal Houses let's note that in both charts:
(A) Uranus (how one deals with humanitarian issues of the "group") is placed on an angle (comes to prominence), in the Twelfth (through underhand ways) and on the Ascendant in both cases, nearly unaspected (that are difficult to incorporate) , dispositing Jupiter (by Haider) or ruling the decanate on the Ninth (by Hitler). (B) Jupiter (ethnic minorities) is personalized (becomes the issue associated with the subject) through aspects to both luminaries. (C) Ruler of the Ninth (other cultures) is angular (bringing matters of this House to the fore) -- either on the Descendant (Hitler's Nazi collaborators) or on the IC (Haider's Nazi background), also either in war-like Aries (Hitler) or conjunct warrior Mars (Haider). (D) Chiron (discrimination) and Jupiter (of ethnicities) both aspect the ruler of the Eleventh House (into groups). In Haider's case Chiron and Jupiter both aspect the ruler of the Ninth (Neptune) also, a placement that he has used to target minorities despite (and because of) his coming to power in the current supposedly anti-discriminatory zeitgeist. (E) Chiron (discrimination) is placed either in the Ninth itself (Hitler) or in Sagittarius (Haider). (F) The Ruler of the Sixth House (how one manifests ones discrimination) is placed in the Eighth House (through ghettos or other places of isolation) and in hard aspect to Pluto (through policies that ostracize or ultimately lead to genocide).
Despite this evidence, I wouldn't suggest that these factors contribute to a signature suggesting xenophobic tendencies. These placements could be used to implement positive anti-discrimination measures for ethnic minorities, too. Bill Clinton -- as a (far from conclusively, yet) relatively anti-racist and anti-homophobic leader -- has invited high profile members of ethnic (including gay and lesbian) minorities into the White House and spoken out against hate crimes and the likes of Haider and Hitlerism. Clinton's chart also includes the placements outlined in "B" & "D", above. He also has his similar versions of points "A" (Uranus is the Ninth), "C" (ruler of Ninth conjunct Nazi-battling Pluto and sextile a conjunction of angular peace-fighting Mars in Libra and the ruler of the Sixth), "E" (Chiron conjunct Jupiter), and "F" (ruler of Sixth on Ascendant conjunct Mars and sextile Pluto).
Note the ties that bind (and blind?). Haider's Cancerian Uranus conjuncts Hitler's Ninth House conjunction of Chiron and Part of Fortune. Hitler's Libran Uranus conjuncts Haider's Neptune, which rules Haider's Ninth. Clinton's MC/Part of Fortune conjuncts Haider's Uranus, and Clinton's Jupiter/Chiron conjunction conjuncts Hitler's Uranus. Clinton should do all he can to stop the rise of Haider, xenophobia, and hate crimes.
There is a signature shaping up here which suggests that Chiron, Jupiter, and Uranus (and their associated Signs and Houses) are involved with issues about discrimination for or against ethnic minority groups. But ultimately, how negatively or positively (or how far right or left or in between) this signature manifests, depends on the individual.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #7 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Sylvia Tobias

No, I don't think it's possible to see political leanings or any other absolutes in the horoscope. Since each planet and sign has both positive and negative influences, the individual chooses how s/he will use them. On the one hand, his Mars/Neptune conjunction in Libra could make him very compassionate and caring towards others and give a universal approach to his actions. On the other hand, it could make him very suspicious, cautious, fearful or sinister. The positions in the 4th house, along with his Cancer ascendant could make him very protective and concerned about his homeland. It appears he has chosen the "lower path" in expressing these energies. Moon in Taurus could make him desirous of keeping things comfortable and the same, particularly since it is quincunx the Mars/Neptune conjunction. Saturn in the third house, along with Mercury in Capricorn, could bring a conservative tone to his thinking and expressions. I would think xenophobia could be brought on by Mars/Neptune aspects, strong 4th

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #8 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Barbara Blackie

First, I must say I was blown away by the Sabian symbol for the North Node: "The president of his country or ruler of the republic is presented."
Second, I find the little pile of conjunctions around the South Node to be informative. With its potential for letting 4th house concerns and attitudes tie one to the past. He might feel a need to relate to others about establishing a protected, secure environment in which concerns about roots, heritage and background are paramount. Because of the mars connection, there could be a tendency toward clannish (xenophobic) behavior, along with a danger of getting stuck in the past.
The next thing that leaps out at me is Chiron, which sits very near transiting pluto. Perhaps public perception of Haider as a maverick is colored by this transit...
Also noted the extremely early degree of Cancer in which Uranus is found. (Loosely square Mars/Node to boot..) Here's a revolutionary guy with some shocking opinions regarding heritage, security, etc., and the 12th house placement also calls up the specters from the past...
Then, of course, stands the incredibly powerful opposition of Pluto to Sun/Jupiter/Venus. He must be a very interesting person to interact with. He could probably charm you into going right where he wanted you before you got a chance to realize that you had been added to his collection.
A very interesting chart, and one that I will continue to think about as time goes by. What will happen at his Chiron return??

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #9 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Bettina Woolard

Ages ago I read somewhere that difficult Jupiter/Pluto aspects indicate prejudiced personalities. Why? Because the flip side of the Greater Benefic is smugness, conceit, and elitism. Pluto gives those qualities "tunnel vision" and inflexibility. But, being long lasting, it only acts as a background for the most salient aspect in the horoscope of JH, which is the angular Mars/Ketu/Neptune conjunction squaring Mercury. Uranus plays its part by being one leg of a T square (cosmic cross if you count Rahu). In the Vedic system Mars is in Virgo, a sign ruled by its enemy, Mercury. Also, the 4th house is an unfortunate one for that planet as it's the opposite of the 10th, in which it enjoys Dik Bala, or directional strength. It's an all around crummy Mars and unfortunately a strong one, since it's angular. Here's C. E. O. Carter on the matter of the difficult aspects of Mars and Mercury: "From the standpoint of moral character the most heedful lesson is, as a rule, to learn to appreciate the values and opinions and types of character different from one's own; and to realise that we are all sometimes mistaken." (That's from "The Astrological Aspects") JH's Mercury is also in bad shape in the house (7th) opposite its Dik Bala and has its dispositor (Jupiter) in its fall in the 8th, a malefic house ... as well as being afflicted by the stuff in the 4th. The Navamsa (9th harmonic) Mercury is also messed up by being conjoined with Saturn and Rahu and opposed by Mars. In Hindu (Vedic) astrology the Nodes are considered demonic, as though planets conjoining them function in an almost unconscious way. Neptune's contribution to the matter is distortion. Mars is also exactly quincunx (a powerful Martian aspect) the Moon, which along with Mercury, rules the mind. The problem is a mind that does not function well on a rational and reasoning level. It thinks it knows everything without bothering with the facts. Uranus near the ascendant is something Haider shares with Hitler and Charles Manson. Here we see this planet's reputation for extremism born out. JH has a weak Saturn, and Saturn has to do with democracy and the working class, two things he probably doesn't relate to. In the 9th harmonic, Saturn and Mars are in aspect (opposition), the signature for hate. With three planets, including the Sun, in the 8th house, he is involved with group energy, and with Mercury (ascendant ruler) in the 7th, his mind is not his own, so we have a person who, like many politicians, is a symbol, a puppet, or a figurehead for a movement.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #10 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Antoinette W. Vawter

Some accentuations repeat here to form what I think of as xenophobic. The Cancer ASC is protectionist & can extend to isolationism. The Ascendant's ruling Moon is in the Aquarian House, H. 11, which governs social concepts but she afflicts the three planets found in Aquarius, divisive within those same social ideals. A view of society that ordains conflict. Whenever the Moon &/or Mercury are in tension with Pluto you find only a closed circle is acceptable to the native. Both of those signatures are in Haider's chart. Who is right (far right) and who is left (out)? Jupiter, Sun & Venus together speak for the establishment and Pluto for the outsider; I don't think that needs to be argued because of the known ties of Jupiter to the conventional, the socially conforming, the conservative strata. Here power & honor & importance through the Sun and values, through Venus, are cooperating with Jupiter. Ruler of H. 10 as Mars fomenting trouble in the homeland Fourth House frightens me, especially debilitated in Libra, which has governance over both war & peace. This position is the more fraught because of its south nodal pour-out conjunction. The activities of the native in society, Moon in H. 11, are calamitous due to the Moon's degree being 9 Taurus & nodes' degree being 9 Aries-Libra. Jupiter trine Neptune inspires preachments that draw followers but what is the message? Pluto represents the foreign element, the "not us", and the opposition is clear. Saturn in Virgo, the needy working class party is at strain, 150 degree inconjunct. Both the Moon of Change in the House of society & the risen Uranus in Cancer indicate Haider wants to remold the milieu he is born into. His high flying north node and Jupiter-Sun conjunction assure him of prominence and personal luck but red flags warn the many headed to examine what they are applauding.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user Ex Member	re: Joerg Haider « Reply #11 - on: 31.12.2000 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User Richard Nolle The March 17, 2000 issue of Mailson III from CEDRA in France (p. 3) lists two additional birth times for Haider: 10h15m and 13h25m MET. Maison III cites the German review "Heute Astrology" (no. 68), as its source without further details.
Back to top	IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #12 - on: 13.12.2004 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User John Young

Joerg Haider is a great man. Its unfortunate that there arent very many people out there that are willing to speak the truth for fear of what the ignorant will do in retaliation. He is a rare politician that makes good on his campaign promises. The world needs more men of his impeccable character He gets my vote any day.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user Ex Member	re: Joerg Haider « Reply #13 - on: 21.01.2006 at 12:30 [UT] » reply by Astrodatabank Web User x hi On old italian Astrology list "astrea" Birth Time is different (09.15 GMT)
Back to top	IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #14 - on: 18.10.2008 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Casolino Salvatore

I know many fire sun people completely "watered" by an AS in Cancer: at 14.25 Haider would have Md in Pisces (with already Mars in Libra); I wonder were he took all the stamina for his extreme political battles. At 9.15 the rising sign is in ARIES with URANUS in the THIRD house: short trip (Giovanni Falcone had Mars there!). Beside Mars now in Scorpio square at his Sun & Moon, Haider was also subject to two devastating transit on his natal chart: URANUS opp. Saturn and Pluto opp. Saturn: in my humble opinion AS at 9.15. is much more logical. Feedback welcome, thank you.

Back to top

IP Logged

Adb web user

Ex Member

re: Joerg Haider
« Reply #15 - on: 18.10.2008 at 13:30 [UT+1] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Tore

For the chinese astrology at 14.25 the rising sign is the sheep, at 9,15 is the snake: more appropriate considering the fascination Haider exerted on so many people not only in Austria but Europe, joint to the AS in Aries, well know for loving speed and motor races... Thank you again, feedback welcome.

Back to top

IP Logged

beetlejuice

Member

Posts: 277

Re: Astro-Databank: Joerg Haider
« Reply #16 - on: 15.04.2009 at 01:22 [UT+1] »

He has Sun in 6 degrees Aquarius

which is closely opposition Transpluto, which by transit was activating Adolf Hitler's chart when he came to power. I think the Transpluto conjunction with Pluto in early Leo around the late 1930's and early 1940's was strongly linked with the holocaust. I think this Sun/Transpluto aspect would make Haider a magnetic leader. Possibly psychopathic.

Solar Arc midheaven progresses conversely to natal Mars/Moon's Nodes at time of death. May well be coincidental or only partial explanation.

Back to top

IP Logged

leviathan Member Posts: 204 Gender:	Re: Astro-Databank: Joerg Haider « Reply #17 - on: 16.04.2009 at 12:59 [UT+1] » hi beetlejuice what is `trancepluti`? you refer to it as planet [single?] or point, and i can`t make up what you mean by it. thanks
Back to top	IP Logged

daylight.rx

Ex Member

Re: Astro-Databank: Joerg Haider
« Reply #18 - on: 17.04.2009 at 00:29 [UT+1] »

This is a good thread !! We are getting lessons , yeah . Finally .

This guy has fascinated me in the past as some of the English media would keep an eye on him . The charts amazing . Restores my faith in good old Jung .....

That Pluto house 3 in Leo a classic leader of a community ( seen it before in fascists or exteme political types ) . That stellium in the 8th Aquarius classic manipulator and predator , eccentric . That Uranus 12th Cancer , an eccentric secret ( He was gay but butch with it ) .

Saturn and Mars in the 4th , oh , this guy leaves planet earth in a violent way ( car crash ) .. Neptune 5th in Libra , easily manipulated by pleasure and nice things of beauty . Also Saturn 4 , no surrender is the name of the game . Although Saturn 4 has bad rep for being a little bit crazy , the one thing about that placement is sticking to your guns , no matter what the odds . MMm . Integrity a better word .

Mercury 7th in Capricorn , appealed to a younger crowd and came across as conservative in relationships . He believed his own dogma . Obviously liked younger partners aswell . NN House 10 , man came into the public eye , got his 15 minutes ( or is it 5 mins these days ? ) of fame . He lived his destiny . Moon 11th Taurus , he looked after his friends , nurtured them . Possible that he had many female fans or attracted friends of feminine or emotional disposition ....

Loads of Natal aspects , both good and bad ( if we are thinking in the binary ) ... Makes for a complicated , thinking man .

I dont care about the guys politics ... So Im not big upping him or anything . Im Liberal ( proper ) and just take life and individuals ( charts ) as they come . Who am I to judge anyone and where I live fascism isnt an issue , its never going to be a problem . People are a mixture of things and when people think alot they change their mind alot . This guy had a heavy chart but boy did he rock with it and he was full of suprises to roll ........

great thread astrodienst !!!!!! maximus .

peace daylight

Back to top

IP Logged

Neptune's Storm Ex Member	Re: Astro-Databank: Joerg Haider « Reply #19 - on: 17.04.2009 at 01:38 [UT+1] » in sidereal : fear of foreign nationalities.
Back to top	IP Logged