•    
    Current Planets
    24-Nov-2014, 19:55 UT/GMT
    Sun2Sagittarius27'19"20s39
    Moon1Capricorn59' 9"18s29
    Mercury24Scorpio49'24"18s34
    Venus10Sagittarius5'12"22s03
    Mars22Capricorn9'32"23s01
    Jupiter22Leo18'35"14n45
    Saturn26Scorpio41'51"17s33
    Uranus12Aries52'36"r4n27
    Neptune4Pisces49'12"10s26
    Pluto11Capricorn57'18"20s40
    TrueNode18Libra24'33"r7s13
    Chiron13Pisces5'49"2s11
    Explanations of the symbols
    Chart of the moment
| My Astro | Forum | FAQ
Welcome as a guest in the Astrodienst forum. You can login to your Astro profile or register as a forum member.You can also remain in the guest status and navigate through this forum as a reader. 24.11.2014 at 19:55 [UT]
 
 Forum Rules Home Help Search  
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Astro-Databank: Marcel Marceau (Read 63 times)
Astro-Databank
Global Moderator
Astrodienst Staff
Adb editor
***




Posts: 204
Astro-Databank: Marcel Marceau
« on: 25.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
Discussion about
Marcel Marceau, born 22 March 1923 at 08:00 AM in Strasbourg
 
This discussion is imported from the  comment board on the  previous astrodatabank.com website.

The great mime, Marcel Marceau, died recently. When I looked at his chart, I was immediately struck by his Ascendant in the sign of Gemini, a sign noted for its capacity to communicate and connect. To his audiences he was a fluent communicator of plot, character, action, emotion, experience and thought though he never uttered a single word or sound. Transcending the limitations of language and culture, he formed connections with the millions who watched him perform. In person he was articulate and thoughtful in expressing his views on his art and on life itself. Off-stage he enjoyed telling a good story, saying "Never get a mime talking. He won't stop." Let's look at his chart this week.
  • If you've seen Marcel Marceau perform you will remember the lithe movements, artful gestures, telling facial expressions and perfect timing that portrayed human experiences without a single word. Where in the chart might you see his talent for mime? Where's the ability to make "the invisible visible." The ability to show us the "art of the essential"? What factors, other than the Gemini Ascendant, might convey his off-stage enjoyment of conversation and story-telling?
  • He once said, "I am a progressive, a man who deals for peace, and who has struggled for enlightenment in the world. I am not just an entertainer." What in the chart indicates the thoughtful philosopher who sees and articulates the meaning and purpose of his art?
  • Marceau has a fixed grand cross involving Venus opposite Neptune and a wide conjunction of Moon-Mars opposite Jupiter. What does this aspect pattern tell us about him?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #1 - on: 25.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User NAILESH PATEL(UK)
 
This chart has the planets spread throughout the horoscope, enabling the individual to experience many areas of life in one, and his various recognitions are proof of this. But looking more closely, one of the planets in his chart describes him as an outstanding individual, but in what field? Mental talent, eg, speaking, lecturing, acting, appear to show artist talent, which is exceptional high and this gives away his recognition. The Moon's close proximity to the Ascendant is very interesting. This is a man who is very good at deceiving, impressing on what is not real. All the indicators clearly suggest an impressionist. The Progression of planets to 2007(age 85)highlights a year in which his health is strongly shown, and the negative effects of his abilities are shown, which together with transits show, a lowering of his social status, eg retirement, death, etc.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #2 - on: 25.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User M
 
Gemini is not a mute sign, however, the chart's ruler, mercury is in Pisces, the more mute of all signs...Gemini rising also speaks with his hands, so that attributes to a mime's talents...
The chart ruler is also conjunct uranus, showing a bizarre and almost eccentric form of communication, the chart ruler is in virtual exact conjunction to uranus showing a very peculiar personality with many odd forms and insights...to boot the chart ruler and uranus are the apex of a Yod and conjunct the south node...seemingly showing that in perhaps his past carnation he was a deaf-mute or some other type of performer who relied on as little speech as possible...
Progrssive clearly speaks to the uranus-mercury chart ruler combination so closely intertwined it would be impossible for him not to be anything but extremely foward thinking...the midheaven is also in aquarius giving an extrat boost since its modern ruler is intertwined with the chart ruler...
We see a very strong Saturn in Libra in mutual reception with Venus in Aquarius..adding to his excellent communication skills since the air signs are involved..Venus in Aquarius often gives an appeal to the bizarre so a career in the circus or stage is greatly enhanced...
The Venus-Neptune opposition gives a great imagination and the ability to make illusions (Neptune) become beautiful (Venus), the sextile with Saturn shows how he made it reality and enjoyable (5th house)
Notice the vertex in the fifth house...his fate was to entertain and please...
Moon-Mars in Taurus gives a peaceful demeanor but possibly fit to short tempers, locked up in the 12th house it can frustrate, but he used it excellently because the 12th house as the natural house of pisces is also silent..he conveyed his words through silence..
The fixed grand cross shows an immensely stubborn soul, which gave him the ability to survive the war and a lost childhood to become a world class entertainer...The Jupiter-Neptune square is excellent for visual interpretation and smoke screen entertainment...the Mars-Venus showed tremendous zeal and energy..Mars is weak so he was decidedly more passive than aggressive and his mime personality reinforces that, almost making the passive do the talking...
The vertex falls at the sun-moon midpoint (approx 26 Aries-Libra), so his purpose in life was to perform (5th house), the part of fortune falls there as well by square in the 2nd house, so it helped him profit from it as well
The chart ruler, Mercury with Uranus in Pisces is the singleton mutable pair with the south node drawing all the energy there, which is where he spent most of his life
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #3 - on: 25.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User DMHGordon
 
What really struck my eye was Mercury conjunct Uranus. This has got to be an energy that manifests in an actor/actress; for example, Pavoratti has an opposition, while Spears and Zeta-Jones each have a conjunction. Here, Pisces placement shows voicelessness.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #4 - on: 25.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Penn
 
What I find interesting is ADB's choice to follow the chart of someone whose brilliance was in using his voice with someone whose brilliance was in not.  
As M suggested, the Gemini ASC would suggest someont adept at communication - which Marceau certainly was. The ruler of the chart in Pisces, while hidden and often abstract isn't really silent (any of my friends can attest to that truth). There is, however, the element of illusion. That Mercury is conjunct Uranus suggests a unique form of communication, which is what Marceau did so well. This theme is repeated with Neptune in the 3rd.  
I have always found the work of mimes to be somewhat eerie. The stillness that they can and must maintain at times in order for their work to be effective. Also the use of black and white in the costuming.  
What I also noticed about the chart was Saturn in the 5th, suggesting some sort of repression, possibly, of the creative process. He obviously used this as a positive in his life, rather than letting it be a hindrance. Rather than act out - he acted in. He forces you to watch him.  
I wonder - did he have any problems with his hearing?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #5 - on: 26.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Sidney Simons
 
To the other comments I can add that using pacedian houses Mercury is also the ruler of that house. So, the chart ruler rules the house of performance as well.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #6 - on: 26.10.2007 at 13:30 [UT+1] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User RKO
 
Saturn (Discipline and Silence) Exalted in Libra (How we relate to others) in the 5th House of Dramatics.
Saturn Sesqui-square Asc (Mask): Muted attention seeking or silent portrayals.
Exalted Sun (Playfulness) Semi-square Venus (Adornment): Elaborate or Overdone Makeup.
Mercury Sextile (State of Mind) Mars: A Spontaneous Mimic.
Sun Sesqui-square Neptune: Flamboyant Disguise.
Also Uranus (Unique) Quincunx Neptune (Disguise).
And Mercury (Clever) Quincunx Neptune (Disguise).
Jupiter (Promotes) Square Venus (Peace).
Sun (Light) Sextile Mc (Personal Goal): Enlightenment.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #7 - on: 28.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Bill M
 
The Sidereal ascendant is Taurus with the ruler, artistic Venus, in the most positive 9th suggesting creative expression. With the Moon as ascendant, (how he sees himself)in Aries with mars in its own sign, the physical is emphasized. These, with Moon Lagna, are aspected by Jupiter in the 7th giving great renown and enthusiasm. His career choice and success comes naturally.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #8 - on: 28.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Marjorie Orr
 
Koch houses. It's fascinating to see the strength of that all watery Neptunian/Piscean influence in his chart. Neptune, concerned more with images than words, with its chameleon quality of changing to suit the moment, weaving a dream of unreality - to bring out as he puts it an essential truth. Neptune on one leg of a fixed T square, so once he found his path he never budged, forming a showbizzy square to Mars, an artistic opposition to Venus, and a builder-of-castles-in-the-air square to Jupiter. There's a water grand trine involving Mercury in Pisces close to Uranus trine Pluto so he was never going to communicate in a conventional way. He was a breaker of moulds. And the water grand trine tends not to like going the realistic way anyway, much prefers to create a dream world. Even two legs of the fixed T square are in water houses. His harmonic charts also have strongly placed Neptune. The 9H has 10th house Neptune trine Jupiter (2nd) and Mars in 6th in a fire grand trine with Uranus on the ascendant conjunct MC. His creative craftsman 5H has Neptune on ascendant opp Pluto. His artistic 7H has a 5th entertainment house Neptune and a New Moon in the 10th trine Mercury Uranus. Even his 4H which indicates how he coped with difficulties has a 10th house Neptune opp Sun with Mars, Venus and Jupiter also in the 10th. His natal Sun isn't much aspected apart from that Pluto square so he probably didn't have a strongly rooted sense of personal identity making it easier to put up a false front and become many other people. I wonder whether the powerlessness of that Pluto square didn't contribute to his mute art. He needed a way to assert himself but only subtly by subterfuge. He died when the transitting Mars Pluto opposition was exact, squaring Uranus, which was in the middle of his Uranus return, and opposition the Sun so it was a very stressed time. And Pluto was also heading into his 8th house. Plus Neptune for some years had been undermining his fixed T square, was hovering around his 10th house Neptune and aiming next year to square his Moon.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #9 - on: 29.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User s
 
marjorie, the sun/neptune 135 drew my attention as well.. it is the most exact aspect in his chart and i make an association with neptune and his line of work.. it is quintile his ascendant as well. i will show in the 5th harmonic, along with vertex if you use that, as both A and neptune are tied to the vertex as well.. anyone out their have any ideas on the vertex???  
one could say someone with sun at zero aries has a weak sense of self identity, or that they are a voice for all mankind.. zero aries point is a special spot - the beginning of a new beginning..
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #10 - on: 31.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User LWood
 
>>..anyone out their have any ideas on the vertex???<<
Without going into detail regarding the calculation of the vertex a simple explanation is that it acts as a secondary ascendant.Not secondary as in progressions but in importance. It's very useful in synastry work. Usually major conjunctions to the VX will result in significant encounters.
Regarding his Gem asc I think the native expressed it well: ""The art of mime is an art of metamorphosis. You cannot say in mime what you can say better in words. You have to make a choice. It is the art of the essential. And you cannot lie. You have to show the truth....Why am I popular? Because I brought silence to the stage, because I made the invisible visible. I create abstract worlds and make them complete."
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #11 - on: 31.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Wain Farrants  
 
First I converted his chart to the Sidereal Zodiac (Aldebaran=15 Taurus), rectified it by the Hermetic Rule and by means of his biography confirmed that my rectification was probably correct. The birth changes to 7:47:03 a.m. GMT (Ascendant 6 Taurus 33, Sun 7 Pisces 0) and the epoch (conception): July 5, 1922 at 3:26:56 p.m. GMT.
Second I converted his chart to Placidus Houses and the Clockwise House System, which was pioneered by the French astrologer, Jacques Dorsan. The traditional 12th house becomes the 1st house, the 11th becomes the 2nd, etc. The cusp of the Ascendant is the same, regardless of which house system you take, but now the First House covers the time of waking up, the Second House the time of starting work and earning money, etc. The Sun, Moon and planets move through the Zodiac anti-clockwise during the year whereas they move through the Houses clockwise during the 24 hours of day and night. I am introducing this system with a French example, but it works for non-French people as well!  
The Moon in Aries and the Mars in Aries, which it also rules, in the 1st House, demonstrates the energy (Mars) he was able to bring to his talent to reflect, to mirror and to imitate (the Moon). Venus, the ruler of his Ascendant, is in the 3rd House of communication and movement, in opposition to Neptune in the 9th House of philosophy and all that uplifts the soul as well as long voyages to other continents. Jupiter in the 7th House benefits marriage whereas Saturn opposed to Chiron causes restrictions in the same domain--hence three marriages. If you take a look at his conception chart, then you see the significant Sun-Pluto conjunction in Gemini in the 5th House of entertainment, the theatre, education and children, in square to Jupiter in the 3rd House of communication. Moreover, Uranus in the 9th House of long journeys and philosophy is in trine with the Sun-Pluto conjunction in the 5th House. Venus opposes Neptune in the birth chart but in the epoch chart they are in conjunction in the 4th House of Vocation.  
Whereas the Moon and Mars are visible above the horizon in the birth chart, the Moon and Mars are invisible below the horizon in the epoch chart, so the invisible (at conception) becomes visible (at birth)!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #12 - on: 31.10.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User s
 
thanks lwood... that is how i understand the vertex as well.. my vertex is in cancer and i have a number of cancerian friends and have no other way of explaing this anomaly astrologically. i have mars in capricorn as well, which i wouldn't ordinarily associate with making cancer friends, but it seems i am well suited to cancers overall - in person anyway. not bad for a rambunctious aries. perhaps my scorpio moon with ascendant explains part of the affinity with cancers, but it doesn't do it enough justice.. i think the vertex is very relevant.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #13 - on: 03.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User maggy van krimpen
 
I agre with Penn on the nice choice of an unusual talent....madly interesting! I was absolutely astounded to see MM's fixed grand cross - who'd have thought it? Of course the Gemini asc and especially the ruler (and vocational indicator) in Pisces in that tight conjunction with Uranus seem very clear in his life and character. All that elastic, plastic, now you see me, now you don't.... He is one of those people you know you've seen, like great presidents or old actors, but that you know nothing about and especially because of his silence. I thought that sentence describing his mentor as "...a kind of Christ. In his class we dedicated our bodies to the discipline of silence." Nobody but Mercury in Pisces could come up with such brilliance and emotion. That conjunction of Merc/Ur in the 11th shows his need for an audience as well. His unaspected Sun (except for v. minor 135) at the first point of Aries too is significant - how good is that for a pioneer in any field. I read a book by Janis Huntley, a UK astrologer many years ago on unaspected planets/axes etc (Astrological Voids) in which she remarks particularly on unaspected Suns as being associated with fame (e.g. the present Queen of England). I was amazed by this but have found over the years that the owners of such an aspect, even if not famous, do have a very well developed sense of self (would love to hear others' comments/experiences). So his packed 11th makes him a sociable person and the Venus in Aquarius on the MC probably makes him speak about being progressive. However, the fascinating grand cross - whew! Moon/Mars in the 12th aspecting very many planets (significantly the sextile to Pluto) gives huge charisma and perhaps excess of feeling, with the Venus squaring Jupiter)- he probably always had a lot of women, that Moon/Mars is very earthy and physical, a very sensual combination. Any Mars/Neptune aspect lends a certain fascination and pulling power to a character, but his excess of feeling probably caused huge earthquakes in his personal life... actually the Moon at 22 of Taurus is associated with healing, and Mars at almost 12 degrees with magnetism, so his personal pulling power seems overwhelming. The Moon/Mars occurs in a Gauquelin zone in the 12th pointing up this conjunction as a very dominant, recurring theme. The 12th planets of course emphasise and tie in with the Pisces feel of it, though of course he must have been deeply practical, and wildly extravagant with emotions in particular, but possibly with money also. Absolutely fascinating and totally unexpected!!
My eye keeps going back though to the big 11th house and partic. the Merc/Ur thing - such contradictions, the emotional/intuitive mind tied together with the cool inventive Uranus - what a combination to be able to use so well. I have 3 astrologer friends of many years and we do have "in jokes" about certain positions, Mercury in Pisces being one of them - for an artist it is wonderful but for most people it is a hard one to live with (the Moon in Scorpio is another one we still can't quite get toe real hang of after all these years) but before you all rush to say Einstein had Mercury in Pisces yes, of course, but specialising in vocational astrology and doing many many children's charts, I have found the Mercury in Pisces a very tricky one particularly for boys to handle....that is a personal observation only, and I mention it just to point up that Marcel Marceau (even the name is flowing, moving!) did something truly exceptional with it. The chart has to be seen as a whole of course and perhaps the grand cross gave him determination and fixed habits which kept him grounded enough to stay on the international stage for so many years.
What stays in the mind is the emotion of his silence, it was "felt" by him and by those who saw him. Lovely to see such a chart.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #14 - on: 06.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Carol
 
Thanks for your interesting comments, Maggie, but regarding the one about Einstein having a Pisces Mercury, actually it was in Aries.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #15 - on: 06.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User s
 
conj saturn to boot, which some consider a 'bad' thing.. i read recently he stole the e= m2 squared idea. but it is all about who gets the first patent or whatever. what a world.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #16 - on: 06.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User maggy van krimpen
 
Carol: I bow my head in shame, you're right that Einstein's Mercury was in Aries....thanks for the check. I notice that Marcel Marceau has a very big midpoint at 0 degrees of Aries Ur/Chiron = 0 15 Mercury/Chiron = 0 25 Venus/Mars = 0 41 Sun = 0 41 Mars/Jupiter = 0 42 Neptune = 0 43 It would be interesting to hear if/how people use Chrion and what significance it contributes to this chart.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #17 - on: 06.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User s
 
maggie, thanks for your comments here... i only konw what others have said about chiron - health issues seem to come up with it... obviously their is more to it then that, but that is all i can say with some experience. it is supposed to operate a bit like a mix of saturn and uranus... if so, and i think it might be), it would indicate some vulnerability with any connections, as well as the possibility of creative change.
the idea of an 'unaspected' planet baffles me... someone said it is unaspected in the context plotemy had of aspects... what do we do now with 135's and 45's added to the mix? these aspects are very real, so i think the idea of an unaspected planet is not that solid. unaspected suns associated with fame might be the case, but then we have lots of aspected suns associated with fame too, so when does astrology become more then a bunch of unverified concepts that we can contemplate and become more factual? i don't have an answer.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #18 - on: 07.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Carol
 
Regarding Chiron, as I understand it, it's about our deepest wound, what we're here to confront, become conscious of and heal. Zip Dobyns said she found it prominent in healers, teachers, and people with a passion for knowledge, spending life studying and traveling. She felt it was a lot like Jupiter/Sag. in that sense but like Jupiter/Pisces in the initial wounded-victim sense.  
As for using it personally, even though its placement and meaning all seem to hit the nail on the head in my own chart, I don't really use it to any significant degree in others' charts because (IMO) it seems to be at such a deep level, you would almost need to be a licensed therapist or psychoanalyst to get into it with them.
Also Maggie, that's an interesting point you bring up about that 1st degree of Aries being so prominent in Marcel's chart, not only as his Sun placement but as the midpoint between Ura/Chir., Merc/Chir., and Venus/Mars.  
The Ura/Chir=Sun midpoint certainly seems to describe the sudden shock and wounding he must have suffered when his father (Sun) was suddenly seized by the Nazis and put in a concentration camp, where he later died. The Merc/Chir=Aries Sun midpoint also describes the horrific Nazi persecution and not only how it curbed his own freedom of expression, but how he courageously helped create false documents in order to save Jewish young men and children from the labor camps.  
And last but not least, Ebertin's "Combination of Stellar Influences" lists the Venus/Mars=Sun midpoint as a "strongly physical love, artistic power of creation," which also seems to describe his art of mime to a tee.  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Adb web user
Ex Member




re: Marcel Marceau
« Reply #19 - on: 07.11.2007 at 12:30 [UT] »
 
reply by Astrodatabank Web User maggy van krimpen
 
S - thanks for your ideas. On the subject of 'unaspected' planets especially; of course that is a loose term because any division of the 360 degrees is as real and valid as the other, though 0. 900 and 180 are the main ones. Perhaps in a chart with few aspects the minor ones work more dramatically or noticeably in the life. In MM's chart with, at best, a weakly aspected Sun, we have a sort of contradiction as that same Sun is a major midpoint. How would we go about interpreting that? Tough indeed.... Carol thanks for the comments on Chiron, I find it a bit of a dumb note so stopped using it, but perhaps I missed the depth of it despite having it explained in a couple of workshops. I have worn out 2 COSI'S though because Ebertin's insight adds another dimension to a chart. I occasionally use transits to midpoints but not consistently.....however, they are undoubtedly huge clarifiers in a chart, in my opinion.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print

As one of the largest astrology portals WWW.ASTRO.COM offers a lot of free features on the subject. With high-quality horoscope interpretations by the world's leading astrologers Liz Greene, Robert Hand and other authors, many free horoscopes and extensive information on astrology for beginners and professionals, www.astro.com is the first address for astrology on the web.
Homepage - Free Horoscopes - Astrodienst Onlineshop - Astrology Knowledge - Ephemeris - Authors and Staff - My Astro - Direct Atlas query - Sitemap - FAQ - Forum - Contact Astrodienst